Is it just me, or are there a lot of similarities between what is going on here and some of the discussion regarding indoctrinating one’s children?
I believe that 10 year olds think about a lot more than most people give them credit for, but Will’s mannerisms and responses come across as rehearsed and less than authentic. That’s just my opinion, but that is what I see. He fidgets with his hands, he stares blindly ahead, he never turns to look at his father, and his responses are just awkward (not 10 year awkward), like reading from play lines and directions awkward.
But here is the real gist of what I am wondering, why is this kid having to fight this battle? Children should not be forced to fight their parents battles, be they Christian, atheist, or LGBT rights.
If this kid can, in your opinion, hold this view and lead you to tears, why can children of religious families do the same?
@Trey, maybe he’s fidgety because he’s a young kid on national television who is unaccustomed to cameras and lights on his make-up caked face. And maybe his lines seem rehearsed because everyone who is ever interviewed on national television rehearses answers to possible questions beforehand and kids are worse at not showing that they’re reciting memorised lines than adults are.
The facial expressions of both the father and the son indicate that gay rights are not the father’s battle (and he’s somewhat afraid of his social position for being on TV in this context) and that the son is genuine, even if he’s reciting lines. I’m good at spotting liars, and I don’t believe that either the kid or his father is concealing any major truths.
Maybe you are right about the fidgeting. I guess I just noticed how it was confined to only his hands, while his body is perfectly still, and he doesn’t seem to have the freedom to look to his father for support when he is talking or afterwards.
What about my other questions though? Why should this kid be paraded around by his parents because he is just so gosh-darned cute and smart and speaks up for gay marriage? He’s 10! Why is his dad over there cracking up at his son being ridiculed in school?
But more importantly, what is the difference between this kid’s ability to hold this position and a 10-year old Christian? Why is one wrong and child abuse and the other accepted and celebrated?
I guess I just noticed how it was confined to only his hands, while his body is perfectly still, and he doesn’t seem to have the freedom to look to his father for support when he is talking or afterwards.
“Deer in the headlights” and “Cow looking at an oncoming train” are two expressions that come to mind. If he was nervous about flubbing a word on national TV, he would look exactly like he did. If his dad made up this story and forced him to say it, he would most definitely keep looking back at his dad as if asking, “Was that right?” [Watch Falcon, the third kid from the left. ]
What about my other questions though?
They were stupid. I ignored them.
Why should this kid be paraded around by his parents because he is just so gosh-darned cute and smart and speaks up for gay marriage?
Because most kids his age don’t form their own political opinions. They either parrot their parents or not care at all. They also never start a legitimate protest of the government by themselves.
He’s 10!
Which is ridiculously young to decide to do what he did for the reasons he stated.
Why is his dad over there cracking up at his son being ridiculed in school?
Because he doesn’t know how to handle that situation, or because he doesn’t see gay rights as such a strong issue as his son does and he’s nervously chuckling because he doesn’t want to be seen as thinking his son brought this on himself unneededly, or because he wants to make his son feel better about being teased by laughing at those who tease him to make them seem idiotic… or maybe because he’s a guy (Guy code § 122b (a) (3) ¶2: “Show no tender emotions. Ever.”) and he’s getting emotional on national TV with make-up on his face where everyone can see and it’s uncomfortable for him.
These are a few of many good, probable explanations for why the dad is laughing. Don’t jump to “LIES!!!” simply because the emotions in the room are wonky. When people are nervous, they do weird things.
But more importantly, what is the difference between this kid’s ability to hold this position and a 10-year old Christian?
A 10-year-old Christian’s story (in almost all cases) is unimpressive. I should know. When I was 10, I heard hundreds of testimonies from kids my age and even gave my own at every goddamn church camp I went to. Only one testimony stuck out from the hundreds: The child of a prostitute. However, we’re pretty sure he made it up and he got in trouble for telling that story because the councilors didn’t believe it either. But have you ever heard those other testimonies? Let me sum them all up for you:
“I don’t know why I believe in Jesus. I just always have. My parents took me to church when I was little, but then I got saved and now I come on my own. Jesus helps me through a lot of my average 10-year-old problems. Blah blah blah.”
That’s not nearly as outstanding, unique or interesting as a 10-year-old saying, “I stood up to the United States government because I’m sick and tired of the inequality I’ve noticed in this once-great nation.”
Why is one wrong and child abuse and the other accepted and celebrated?
The fact that John Roberts is interviewing one and not the other is no indication that anyone is making any statement for or against the Christian kids. However, I’ll play along.
One is wrong because it contradicts what we know to be true (evolution happened, prayer doesn’t cure anything, the universe is billions of years older than Earth, which is billions of years old, dinosaurs existed way before humans, etc.) and child abuse because it’s forced onto children and discourages them to explore reality for themselves, disrupting development of critical thinking and reason and turning the nation into a land of fat, stupid, loyal, voting pawns. The other is accepted because it shows amazing initiative and thinking skills for a kid aged 10, and it’s celebrated because it’s much more fucking impressive than, “Momma makes me go to church.”
Just going to add to what Reed is saying here – I have a problem with indoctrination. I have far less of a problem with a child who honestly thinks things through and comes to the conclusion that religion is right. I mean, if they fuck with my rights then I’ll get angry, but I certainly won’t call it child abuse or indoctrination or brain washing or anything else, because it isn’t.
Back when I used to attend church, a twelve year old in the congregation was baptised. The church had strict rules about anyone under 14 being baptised. This kid stood up in front of a panel of church ministers and explained his philosophical reasons for wanting to be a Christian. They made an exception.
I obviously have less respect for that position, but I still respect the kid for coming to his own conclusions about his beliefs, and standing up for them. Even if those beliefs are a pile of BS, kids thinking things through intelligently is pretty fucking rare, and more than a little impressive.
I agree with you Cleo, except for the saying Christian beliefs are a pile of BS.
My conflict or question arises more out of a desire to teach my hypothetical children what I believe, yet not forcing them to accept them or mistaking their ability to parrot my particular beliefs without actually holding them. There seems to be a thin line there, that for me, I am still grappling with. If you raised your children on pure Rationality and Empiricism, and they grew up and became highly religious people, even potentially holding to a worldview that considers homosexuality a sin, what would your position be? Would you wish you had been more stringent? Would you as “fully” accept them and your relationship with them as you would if they believed the same as you?
There also seems to me to be a place where we can and do “say” things, we don’t fully mean or understand. For instance, when two people get married, they make a lot of vows, promises, oaths, when in all likelihood they don’t fully grasp the extent of what they are agreeing to do. Should they then not say them? Isn’t there something admirable about saying things that you aspire to, even when you don’t quite fully grasp them?
“If you raised your children on pure Rationality and Empiricism, and they grew up and became highly religious people, even potentially holding to a worldview that considers homosexuality a sin, what would your position be? ”
This question is one of the biggest, if not THE biggest, reason why I will not be having children. There is absolutely no easy answer. I am certain that if I had a child who came to me with religious beliefs, I would not be able to accept him or her. I think that is an unacceptable way for a parent to be, and so I am not fit to parent.
It is indeed admirable to aspire to ideals, to sign up to a cause even if you cannot fully understand everything about it. However, I do not believe that (the vast majority of) children are in a position to make serious and life changing decisions. Your example of marriage is a good one – we don’t let kids get married. Or drink alcohol, or vote, or have elective surgery. There are some things too big for children to get mixed up in. Not to mention a lot of the issues religion addresses are adult issues (sexuality, abortion, violence & war, etc). Is it right for a child to say “I am a Catholic” without understanding the harm caused in Africa by the Catholic’s stance on contraception? How would you feel if you signed a petition for a worthy cause, only to find that your name had been used to promote something that was morally wrong? Most children do not have the understanding of the moral issues surrounding religion because they do not have the relevant life experience or adult instincts and desires, they simply cannot look at the belief system as a whole.
I think we’re mostly on the same page. I would be wary of seeing children get heavily into religion, and am very against brainwashing by parents, schools, media or anything else. But if a child shows understanding of the beliefs and strong knowledge and willingness to learn about all the implications of those beliefs, I would not want to prevent them from accessing knowledge and making those choices for themselves.
Reed, I’m just going to ignore your post because you know good and well that I can’t properly respond without being banned from trolling and posting on my favorite Gaytheists blog.
I will also step up on the “not indoctrination” side (sorry but my fellows didn’t make my point.)
I think one thing that makes it more likely that he isn’t being forced to say this is that he didn’t just Rattle off DADT/DOMA/ENDA When I was watching videos and protests of Prop 8 Demonstrations last year I did feel annoyed at the couples bringing out their kids to hold signs especially 4-6 year old ones to hold them up because it was obvious they didn’t know why they were doing it apart from their parents were in favor of it.
10 comments
Is it just me, or are there a lot of similarities between what is going on here and some of the discussion regarding indoctrinating one’s children?
I believe that 10 year olds think about a lot more than most people give them credit for, but Will’s mannerisms and responses come across as rehearsed and less than authentic. That’s just my opinion, but that is what I see. He fidgets with his hands, he stares blindly ahead, he never turns to look at his father, and his responses are just awkward (not 10 year awkward), like reading from play lines and directions awkward.
But here is the real gist of what I am wondering, why is this kid having to fight this battle? Children should not be forced to fight their parents battles, be they Christian, atheist, or LGBT rights.
If this kid can, in your opinion, hold this view and lead you to tears, why can children of religious families do the same?
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@Trey, maybe he’s fidgety because he’s a young kid on national television who is unaccustomed to cameras and lights on his make-up caked face. And maybe his lines seem rehearsed because everyone who is ever interviewed on national television rehearses answers to possible questions beforehand and kids are worse at not showing that they’re reciting memorised lines than adults are.
The facial expressions of both the father and the son indicate that gay rights are not the father’s battle (and he’s somewhat afraid of his social position for being on TV in this context) and that the son is genuine, even if he’s reciting lines. I’m good at spotting liars, and I don’t believe that either the kid or his father is concealing any major truths.
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afraid for his social position*
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Maybe you are right about the fidgeting. I guess I just noticed how it was confined to only his hands, while his body is perfectly still, and he doesn’t seem to have the freedom to look to his father for support when he is talking or afterwards.
What about my other questions though? Why should this kid be paraded around by his parents because he is just so gosh-darned cute and smart and speaks up for gay marriage? He’s 10! Why is his dad over there cracking up at his son being ridiculed in school?
But more importantly, what is the difference between this kid’s ability to hold this position and a 10-year old Christian? Why is one wrong and child abuse and the other accepted and celebrated?
Like or Dislike:
0 
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“Deer in the headlights” and “Cow looking at an oncoming train” are two expressions that come to mind. If he was nervous about flubbing a word on national TV, he would look exactly like he did. If his dad made up this story and forced him to say it, he would most definitely keep looking back at his dad as if asking, “Was that right?” [Watch Falcon, the third kid from the left. ]
They were stupid. I ignored them.
Because most kids his age don’t form their own political opinions. They either parrot their parents or not care at all. They also never start a legitimate protest of the government by themselves.
Which is ridiculously young to decide to do what he did for the reasons he stated.
Because he doesn’t know how to handle that situation, or because he doesn’t see gay rights as such a strong issue as his son does and he’s nervously chuckling because he doesn’t want to be seen as thinking his son brought this on himself unneededly, or because he wants to make his son feel better about being teased by laughing at those who tease him to make them seem idiotic… or maybe because he’s a guy (Guy code § 122b (a) (3) ¶2: “Show no tender emotions. Ever.”) and he’s getting emotional on national TV with make-up on his face where everyone can see and it’s uncomfortable for him.
These are a few of many good, probable explanations for why the dad is laughing. Don’t jump to “LIES!!!” simply because the emotions in the room are wonky. When people are nervous, they do weird things.
A 10-year-old Christian’s story (in almost all cases) is unimpressive. I should know. When I was 10, I heard hundreds of testimonies from kids my age and even gave my own at every goddamn church camp I went to. Only one testimony stuck out from the hundreds: The child of a prostitute. However, we’re pretty sure he made it up and he got in trouble for telling that story because the councilors didn’t believe it either. But have you ever heard those other testimonies? Let me sum them all up for you:
“I don’t know why I believe in Jesus. I just always have. My parents took me to church when I was little, but then I got saved and now I come on my own. Jesus helps me through a lot of my average 10-year-old problems. Blah blah blah.”
That’s not nearly as outstanding, unique or interesting as a 10-year-old saying, “I stood up to the United States government because I’m sick and tired of the inequality I’ve noticed in this once-great nation.”
The fact that John Roberts is interviewing one and not the other is no indication that anyone is making any statement for or against the Christian kids. However, I’ll play along.
One is wrong because it contradicts what we know to be true (evolution happened, prayer doesn’t cure anything, the universe is billions of years older than Earth, which is billions of years old, dinosaurs existed way before humans, etc.) and child abuse because it’s forced onto children and discourages them to explore reality for themselves, disrupting development of critical thinking and reason and turning the nation into a land of fat, stupid, loyal, voting pawns. The other is accepted because it shows amazing initiative and thinking skills for a kid aged 10, and it’s celebrated because it’s much more fucking impressive than, “Momma makes me go to church.”
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Just going to add to what Reed is saying here – I have a problem with indoctrination. I have far less of a problem with a child who honestly thinks things through and comes to the conclusion that religion is right. I mean, if they fuck with my rights then I’ll get angry, but I certainly won’t call it child abuse or indoctrination or brain washing or anything else, because it isn’t.
Back when I used to attend church, a twelve year old in the congregation was baptised. The church had strict rules about anyone under 14 being baptised. This kid stood up in front of a panel of church ministers and explained his philosophical reasons for wanting to be a Christian. They made an exception.
I obviously have less respect for that position, but I still respect the kid for coming to his own conclusions about his beliefs, and standing up for them. Even if those beliefs are a pile of BS, kids thinking things through intelligently is pretty fucking rare, and more than a little impressive.
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I agree with you Cleo, except for the saying Christian beliefs are a pile of BS.
My conflict or question arises more out of a desire to teach my hypothetical children what I believe, yet not forcing them to accept them or mistaking their ability to parrot my particular beliefs without actually holding them. There seems to be a thin line there, that for me, I am still grappling with. If you raised your children on pure Rationality and Empiricism, and they grew up and became highly religious people, even potentially holding to a worldview that considers homosexuality a sin, what would your position be? Would you wish you had been more stringent? Would you as “fully” accept them and your relationship with them as you would if they believed the same as you?
There also seems to me to be a place where we can and do “say” things, we don’t fully mean or understand. For instance, when two people get married, they make a lot of vows, promises, oaths, when in all likelihood they don’t fully grasp the extent of what they are agreeing to do. Should they then not say them? Isn’t there something admirable about saying things that you aspire to, even when you don’t quite fully grasp them?
Like or Dislike:
0 
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“If you raised your children on pure Rationality and Empiricism, and they grew up and became highly religious people, even potentially holding to a worldview that considers homosexuality a sin, what would your position be? ”
This question is one of the biggest, if not THE biggest, reason why I will not be having children. There is absolutely no easy answer. I am certain that if I had a child who came to me with religious beliefs, I would not be able to accept him or her. I think that is an unacceptable way for a parent to be, and so I am not fit to parent.
It is indeed admirable to aspire to ideals, to sign up to a cause even if you cannot fully understand everything about it. However, I do not believe that (the vast majority of) children are in a position to make serious and life changing decisions. Your example of marriage is a good one – we don’t let kids get married. Or drink alcohol, or vote, or have elective surgery. There are some things too big for children to get mixed up in. Not to mention a lot of the issues religion addresses are adult issues (sexuality, abortion, violence & war, etc). Is it right for a child to say “I am a Catholic” without understanding the harm caused in Africa by the Catholic’s stance on contraception? How would you feel if you signed a petition for a worthy cause, only to find that your name had been used to promote something that was morally wrong? Most children do not have the understanding of the moral issues surrounding religion because they do not have the relevant life experience or adult instincts and desires, they simply cannot look at the belief system as a whole.
I think we’re mostly on the same page. I would be wary of seeing children get heavily into religion, and am very against brainwashing by parents, schools, media or anything else. But if a child shows understanding of the beliefs and strong knowledge and willingness to learn about all the implications of those beliefs, I would not want to prevent them from accessing knowledge and making those choices for themselves.
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Reed, I’m just going to ignore your post because you know good and well that I can’t properly respond without being banned from trolling and posting on my favorite Gaytheists blog.
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I will also step up on the “not indoctrination” side (sorry but my fellows didn’t make my point.)
I think one thing that makes it more likely that he isn’t being forced to say this is that he didn’t just Rattle off DADT/DOMA/ENDA When I was watching videos and protests of Prop 8 Demonstrations last year I did feel annoyed at the couples bringing out their kids to hold signs especially 4-6 year old ones to hold them up because it was obvious they didn’t know why they were doing it apart from their parents were in favor of it.
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